What kind of proof does an atheist require?


xxx wrote saying:

While most of your site offers a balanced opinion of both sides of the topics it covers, one discussion I find fault with is that of atheism. As an atheist, I do not have to prove that god does not exist. It is the responsibility of the person making a positive assertation to prove that the assertation is true, thus it is your responsibility to prove to me that god exists and unless you can, it is reasonable and logically for me to believe that god does not exist. For example, say that person A says that he knows there is a monkey in space that controls all our actions. As a person seekig the truth, you ask him to show you the monkey. He says to you, "Do you question me? Can you not see that the monkey impacts all our lives? Who do you think makes you want to eat? Why the great monkey of course. Why are we all on this planet? To serve the great monkey, of course. You should believe that there is a monkey unless you can prove that there isn't one." Of course, you cannot prove that this monkey does not exist, he is supposed to be far out in space where you cannot explore. After this conversation, is it logical for person A to expect you to believe that there is a monkey in space just because you can't prove there isn't one? No person adhering to the rules of logic would say you should believe in the all-mighty monkey. Replace the monkey with god and you see the position atheists take. As such, we atheists sit, patiently and with reason on our side, waiting for you who believe to prove that god exisits. When you have undeniable proof, email me and I'll come pray with you.

A quick reply:

How reasonable is it for the universe to have no cause, is it reasonable for the universe to pop into existence from nothing, complete with all the physical laws that allow stars to form, planet earth to form and then living creatures to form? As for proof of God's existence we have the history of God's revelation to man in the bible. This is historical evidence, much of it is eyewitness testimony. We also have peoples experience of God in their own lives, see my biographies page. An atheist is going to have to show that it is reasonable for the universe to come from nothing, that there is a reasonable cause for the scientific laws, that the bible is historically untrustworthy and that peoples experience of God is purely a figment of their own imagination.

General introduction
What constitutes undeniable proof?
Logical proofs:
Historic Evidence:
God becomes man:
Final thought:
Books:

General introduction

Does God have to prove himself to an atheist or to anyone else for that matter? He could live in splendid isolation. God IS, period. What did God say to Moses?

(Exo 3:14 NIV) God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Since God is spirit, he is invisible, so how can we know whether he exists? There are other things that are also invisible, such as the wind, gravity, magnetism but these can all be measured indirectly.

So what can we know about God indirectly?

We can see what he made, i.e. the universe. What caused the universe together with the laws that hold it together and which seem finely tuned to allow life (at least) on earth, according to the Anthropic principle. Did the universe and its upholding laws just start by happenstance?

We should also ask whether God has chosen to reveal himself to men in the past? We have the historic record of this in the bible. Should we believe in ancient records? Do we believe that these ancient people lied or made up strange stories? Apparently the Jews do not, even today you can see devout Jews meditating on the sacred scriptures, at airports etc.


What constitutes undeniable proof?

As such, we atheists sit, patiently and with reason on our side, waiting for you who believe to prove that god exists. When you have undeniable proof, email me and I'll come pray with you.

What undeniable proof do you want?

Carl Sagan wanted a cross in the sky, the universe wasn't enough for him.

Tell me what is undeniable proof?

If God knocked on your door every day, you would accuse God of coercion, instead he gives you a conscience. But you still ignore that.

If you don't want to know God, should he force himself on you?

God is a person, not a Monkey in space. He is more interested in relationship, than in the technical data.

Some people want a supernatural experience from God or an emotional experience, I was once in this category.

Some people do not want to really find God because they know of the moral consequences for their lives. Simply put, if God does not exist you can do what you please. So for them any evidence is insufficient. Some are afraid of God because of some big sin in their past. But if God is God, he must be holy and merciful.

The big question is, do you really want to know whether God exists? If the answer is NO then go no further, go here instead and you will be in good company. For those of you seeking God, then I submit to you that God exists and has revealed himself to mankind historically at least. That evidence may not be the kind you seek, but it is a start. If you are worried about bible difficulties go to Glenn Miller's site or J P Holding's site.

Our own desire for immortality should give us reason to seek God, after all he is eternal and could grant us immortality. Self interest should give us a motive for seeking after God.

God has given us historic evidence for his existence which is recorded in the bible and much of it is eye witness testimony. Then there is the evidence of people who have experienced God outside of the bible, see biographies of Christians. We might not like this evidence, but it is evidence. When we go to court as a Juror we cannot actually see the crime being committed so we rely on witnesses who saw something. The early Christians were eye witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. We have their eye witness testimony recorded in the New Testament. The Christian faith is not blind faith but grounded on historical evidence. Many people do not like this evidence, which is why the bible is the most hotly contested book in history. But, like a juror, we have to examine the evidence for ourselves and come to a verdict.

Types of proof for Gods existence:


Logical proofs:

Anselm's Ontological Argument

  1. God is by definition that which nothing greater can be conceived
  2. It is greater to exist in reality than to exist only in the mind
  3. Therefore God must exist in reality. If he didn't exist, he would not be the greatest possible.

Thomas Aquinas

  • from motion to an Unmoved Mover
  • from effects to a First Cause
  • from contingent being to Necessary Being
  • from degrees of being to Most Perfect Being
  • from design in nature to a Designer of nature

Pascal's Wager

God exists God does not exist
Wager for God Gain all Status quo
Wager against God Misery Status quo

Scientific Arguments: Modern science has given us a universe with a beginning and designed for man.

  • The big bang theory of the universe means that the universe had a beginning, and it therefore requires a cause, see Kalam cosmological argument:
  • The fine-tuned nature of the physical constants suggest suggest that the universe was designed for intelligent life, see Anthropic Principle
  • The high information content found in DNA indicates an intelligent designer, see also William Paley
  • The amino acids produced in Miller's experiment in 1953 are 50:50 left and right handed, those in living cells are ALL left handed. Homochirality

Design The Teleological argument.

The marks of design are too strong to be got over. Design must have had a designer. That designer must have been a person. That person is GOD.

Kalam cosmological argument:

  1. Everything that had a beginning had a cause
  2. The universe had a beginning
  3. Therefore the universe had a cause

Anthropic Principle

The Anthropic Principle is an attempt to explain the observed fact that the fundamental constants of physics and chemistry are just right or fine-tuned to allow the universe and life at we know it to exist. (see Cosmic Matters)

"... the Anthropic Principle says that the seemingly arbitrary and unrelated constants in physics have one strange thing in common--these are precisely the values you need if you want to have a universe capable of producing life." Patrick Glynn

Historic Evidence:

Then we have the historic evidence as recorded in the bible. The bible records God's dealings with mankind, much of it is eyewitness testimony. If proof is required then this is good historical proof of the existence of God.

Luke as historian:

The gospel of Luke and the book of Acts, also written by Luke are the best historical books in the NT, in the sense that Luke wrote as an historian. We can see this from the preface to the two books. He had carefully investigated the eyewitness testimony of those who knew Jesus

(Luke 1:1-4 NIV) Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, {2} just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. {3} Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, {4} so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

(Acts 1:1-3 NIV) In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach {2} until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. {3} After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

Luke's objective was so that Theophilus might know the certainty of the things he had been taught. The Christian faith is based on evidence, historic evidence. The testimony of men and women who experienced God's dealings with them. That testimony is recorded in the bible. For those worried by bible difficulties see here.

Since Luke refers to many historical facts, we can check these facts to see if he is correct. If he is found to be accurate in what we can check then we can be reasonably sure that he was accurate in recording what we cannot check. He was also probably the only Gentile among the NT writers.

"Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trust worthy ...this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians." Sir W M Ramsay, The Bearing of Recent Discovery on the Trustworthiness of the New Testament, Hodder and Stoughton, 1915.

Whatever his sources were, Luke made good use of them. And he sets his story in the context of imperial history. Of all the New Testament writers, he is the only one who so much as names a Roman emperor. Three emperors (Augustus, Tiberius, and Claudius) are mentioned by name; the Emperor Nero is also referred to, but not by his personal name--he is the 'Caesar' to whom Paul appealed. The birth of Jesus is fixed in the reign of the Emperor Augustus, when Herod the Great was king of Judea, at the time of an imperial census. The commencement of the public ministry of John the Baptist, with which the apostolic preaching begins, is elaborately dated by a series of synchronisms in the Greek historical manner, reminding the classical student of the synchronisms with which, for example, Thucydides dates the outbreak of the Peleponnesian War in the beginninmg of the second book of his History. Names of note in the Jewish and Gentile world of his day appear in Luke's pages; in addition to the emperors, we meet the Roman governors Quirinius, Pilate, Sergius Paullus, Gallio, Felix, and Festus; Herod the Great and some of his descendants--Herod Antipas the tetrarch of Galilee, the vassal-kings Herod Agrippa I and II, Berenice and Drusilla; leading members of the Jewish priestly caste such as Annas, Caiaphas, and Ananias; Gamaliel, the greatest contemporary Rabbi and Pharisaic leader. A writer who thus relates his story to the wider context of world history is courting trouble if he is not careful; he affords his critical readers so many opportunities for testing his accuracy.
Luke takes this risk, and stands the test admirably....[F F Bruce The New Testament Documents: Are they reliable? 1960]

A few things about Jesus as recorded by Luke.

Jesus was the Messiah promised in Isa 61:1.

(Luke 4:18-21 NIV) "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, {19} to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." {20} Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, {21} and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

Jesus forgave sins and healed a man to prove it.

(Luke 5:20-25 NIV) When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven." {21} The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, "Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?" {22} Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? {23} Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? {24} But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. . . ." He said to the paralyzed man, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." {25} Immediately he stood up in front of them, took what he had been lying on and went home praising God.

He raised the dead

(Luke 7:12-15 NIV) As he approached the town gate, a dead person was being carried out--the only son of his mother, and she was a widow. And a large crowd from the town was with her. {13} When the Lord saw her, his heart went out to her and he said, "Don't cry." {14} Then he went up and touched the coffin, and those carrying it stood still. He said, "Young man, I say to you, get up!" {15} The dead man sat up and began to talk, and Jesus gave him back to his mother.

He commands even the winds and the water, and they obey him

(Luke 8:22-25 NIV) One day Jesus said to his disciples, "Let's go over to the other side of the lake." So they got into a boat and set out. {23} As they sailed, he fell asleep. A squall came down on the lake, so that the boat was being swamped, and they were in great danger. {24} The disciples went and woke him, saying, "Master, Master, we're going to drown!" He got up and rebuked the wind and the raging waters; the storm subsided, and all was calm. {25} "Where is your faith?" he asked his disciples. In fear and amazement they asked one another, "Who is this? He commands even the winds and the water, and they obey him."

He predicts his own death and resurrection

(Luke 9:22 NIV) And he said, "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life."

Jesus was transfigured before the disciples, plus Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus (there is life after death), and they hear the voice of God saying "This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him".

(Luke 9:28-37 NIV) About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. {29} As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. {30} Two men, Moses and Elijah, {31} appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. {32} Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. {33} As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, "Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah." (He did not know what he was saying.) {34} While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. {35} A voice came from the cloud, saying, "This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him." {36} When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone. The disciples kept this to themselves, and told no one at that time what they had seen. {37} The next day, when they came down from the mountain, a large crowd met him.

Jesus knowledge of the Father.

(Luke 10:22 NIV) "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

Whether we acknowledge Jesus before men determines our fate before the angels

(Luke 12:8-9 NIV) "I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. {9} But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God.

He healed the blind

(Luke 18:35-43 NIV) As Jesus approached Jericho, a blind man was sitting by the roadside begging. {36} When he heard the crowd going by, he asked what was happening. {37} They told him, "Jesus of Nazareth is passing by." {38} He called out, "Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!" {39} Those who led the way rebuked him and told him to be quiet, but he shouted all the more, "Son of David, have mercy on me!" {40} Jesus stopped and ordered the man to be brought to him. When he came near, Jesus asked him, {41} "What do you want me to do for you?" "Lord, I want to see," he replied. {42} Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has healed you." {43} Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus, praising God. When all the people saw it, they also praised God.

At his trial before the Jewish leaders he testified that he was the Son of God

(Luke 22:66-71 NIV) At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. {67} "If you are the Christ, " they said, "tell us." Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, {68} and if I asked you, you would not answer. {69} But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God." {70} They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am." {71} Then they said, "Why do we need any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips."

After his resurrection he had a real body that could be touched.

(Luke 24:38-40 NIV) He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? {39} Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." {40} When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.

Further in Acts Luke records that Jesus gave many convincing proofs that he was alive

(Acts 1:1-3 NIV) In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach {2} until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. {3} After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

What about the swoon theory, the theory that Jesus never died. Well a few days after being crucified, he was able to walk seven miles to Emmaus (Luke 24:13), hardly the actions of someone who had been flogged, had nails through his feet and come close to death. Also John records that one of the roman soldiers pierced Jesus side, causing a sudden flow of blood and water. This would be congealed blood and clear plasma found in a dead person.

(John 19:34 NIV) Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

Christianity was started by people who were eye witnesses to the fact of Jesus resurrection.

(Acts 2:32 NIV) God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.

Acts 3:15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

(1 Cor 15:3-7 NIV) For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, {4} that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, {5} and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. {6} After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. {7} Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles,

In addition to the historic evidence in the bible, we have peoples own testimonies of God's work in their lives see biographies of Christians. God is personal and deals with each of us personally.


God becomes man:

Now I happen to like birds, sparrows in particular (why sparrows, because I like them). Now whenever I go near to a sparrow it flies away. I even feed them but they still fly away, but later they come back and eat the food that I put out for them. I suppose that they are afraid of much larger humans like me. Now if I wanted to communicate to the sparrows that I actually like sparrows, how to do it? Well, I could become a sparrow and tell them that I like sparrows in 'sparrow speak' (chirp chirp). So how best, for the eternal and invisible God, to communicate to us humans? Become a man like us and speak to us using human language.

How would we recognize such a man, after all he would be a man? If a man came up to you and said "I am God", you would assume that he was from the local loony bin and had escaped. But if he backed up his claims by his actions then I might just, possibly and slowly believe in him and his claims. Of course, it is also possible that he might be misunderstood.

I suppose that being misunderstood is one of the major problems that God faces, after all God's own people, the religious leaders of the day, misunderstood his Son, and they demanded the Roman governor to have him crucified. They crucified him out of envy, as even the governor Pilate recognized.

Even Jesus own disciples, who were with him for three years, were very slow to realize who he actually was, so we should not be surprised if people are slow to acknowledge who Jesus is today. For most of us there is a time period involved, we do not have the luxury of eating and living with Jesus.

What are his claims?

(John 5:17-18 NIV) Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." {18} For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

(John 6:38-42 NIV) For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. {39} And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. {40} For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." {41} At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." {42} They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"

(John 6:46 NIV) No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

(John 8:42 NIV) Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

(John 8:46 NIV) Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?

(John 10:30-33 NIV) I and the Father are one." {31} Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, {32} but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" {33} "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

(John 10:37-39 NIV) Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. {38} But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." {39} Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

(John 14:6-11 NIV) Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. {7} If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." {8} Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." {9} Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? {10} Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. {11} Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

(John 15:23-25 NIV) He who hates me hates my Father as well. {24} If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. {25} But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.'

(John 16:28 NIV) I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."

The words of a mad man, or the Son of God?

Of course if he was mad, would he have allowed the Romans to crucify him? Any sensible man, mad or otherwise, would have tried to escape. If he was mad, would he have asked his disciple, John, to look after his mother, hardly what we would expect of a mad man?

When he was before Pilate he could have denied all charges, but he remained silent, hardly looks like he was afraid to die. But he predicted his own death.

(John 12:32-33 NIV) But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." {33} He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

(Mat 20:18-19 NIV) "We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death {19} and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!"

(Mark 10:33-34 NIV) "We are going up to Jerusalem," he said, "and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, {34} who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise."

Now of course our atheist friend is going to have to deny the evidence for the resurrection.

(1 Cor 15:3-8 NIV) For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, {4} that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, {5} and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. {6} After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. {7} Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, {8} and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

Did Paul lie, when he said that the risen Christ appeared to more than five hundreds of the brothers at the same time?

After some time for reflection, the apostle John says:

(John 20:30-31 NIV) Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. {31} But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

This is the heartfelt testimony of one of Jesus closest companions. Was he a liar or was he speaking the truth?

You be the judge and the jury. Do you have this man crucified or do you find him NOT GUILTY.


Final thought:

God is infinite and has an infinite personality so there will be no boredom in heaven.

Related essay: The responsibility is on us to seek God

See Glenn Miller's analysis The question of responsibility: is God supposed to 'prove stuff' to us, or are we supposed to 'seek God'?

For further study Historical Evidence and the Claims of Christ By Matt Perman


Books:

  1. The Historical Reliability of the Gospels by Craig L. Blomberg
  2. New Testament Documents : Are They Reliable? by Frederick Fyvie Bruce
  3. The Historical Jesus : Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ by Gary R. Habermas
  4. Reasonable Faith : Christian Truth and Apologetics by William Lane Craig, includes a section by Craig Blomberg on the historical reliability of the New Testament
  5. Who Moved the Stone? by Frank Morison --The author began to write this book with the intention of disproving the Resurrection but found instead that the evidence supported the biblical story. This recognized classic is an examination of his research and the evidence he found.
  6. History and Christianity by John Warwick Montgomery
  7. God : The Evidence : The Reconciliation of Faith and Reason in a Post-Secular World by Patrick Glynn. Written by an ex-atheist it deals with the Anthropic Principle, Near death experience and more, I found him very readable.

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