Here is another rebuttal to Pre-Tribulation rapture arguments from the Cornerstone Church, Garden City, Kansas (nice site). My comments in color.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture

Let me first say that our fellowship as Christians is not based upon the timing of the rapture, but upon the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Some have accused those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture as "escapists," trying to avoid all trouble or persecution. On the contrary, the Church always has been and always will be persecuted as long as we are in the world, but this is not the same as the wrath of God poured out during the Tribulation. We believe the rapture occurs before the Tribulation because scriptures overwhelmingly support a pre-tribulation rapture, as opposed to the a-millennial, post-millennial, and post-tribulation theories.

I'll be happy whenever Jesus returns for His Church, whether it is Pre-Trib, sometime during the Tribulation, or at the end of the Tribulation. We can't be dogmatic over something that hasn't occurred yet. Whenever He comes is His will, which is fine with me. In the mean time, God has given us scriptures to examine. The following is a list of scriptural proofs that indicate the rapture will be Pre-Tribulation.

The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.

It is a basic principal of biblical interpretation to use a clear passage to interpret an obscure passage. The main rapture passage that you just quoted (1 Thess 4:13-18) makes it quite clear that at the second coming the dead in Christ will rise first (the resurrection) and then those who are still alive will be caught up together with them (i.e. raptured).

(1 Th 4:13-18 NIV) Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. {14} We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. {15} According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. {16} For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. {17} After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. {18} Therefore encourage each other with these words.

This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.

So what, the second coming is referred to many times in the New Testament, sometimes the resurrection is mentioned sometimes it is not.

In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.

In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call "the rapture" and "the second coming."

In the primary rapture passage 1 Thess 4:13-18 the rapture and the second coming plainly coincide, where to you get a third coming from?

(1 Th 4:13-18 NIV) Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. {14} We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. {15} According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. {16} For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. {17} After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. {18} Therefore encourage each other with these words.

Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

This argument rests on the assumption that the 1260 days start mid-way through the tribulation which is said to last seven years. However if we look at the woman passage in Rev 12:6 she flees into the desert after the ascension of Christ into heaven. In a parallel passage in Rev 12:13-14 it says that that she is taken care of for a time, times and half a time and this time starts after the devil was hurled to the earth which was during the ministry of Jesus ("I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven". Luke 10:18 ). Your assumption is dubious at best.

(Rev 12:5-9 NIV) She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. {6} The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. {7} And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. {8} But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. {9} The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

(Rev 12:13-14 NIV) When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. {14} The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.

The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the church being caught up at the rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.

In Rev 4:1 it is clearly John who is told to 'Come up here' not the church. The next occurrence of the word 'church' occurs in Rev 22:16 (pleural), however the word 'saints' occurs 12 times, and 'servants' occurs 11 times after Rev 3:22. There is also a rapture event in 11:12 when the two witnesses are told to 'come up here'. The majority of commentaries on Revelation do indeed find the church after Rev 3:22 apart from dispensational ones.

A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.

The word church does not occur in 2 Tim, Titus, 2 Pet, 1 and 2 John and Jude but that does not mean that the church is not present. The fact that the two witnesses are resurrected and ascend into heaven (I would call it a rapture) is good evidence for a post trib rapture since the two witnesses represents the church. Compare the two lampstands of 11:4 with the seven lampstands of 1:20 which are the seven Churches, two being the number of witness (Deu 17:6, John 8:17, 2 Cor 13:1 the disciples were sent out by Jesus in two's, Mark 6:7).

After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place.

This assumes that the twenty four elders are from the resurrected church in the first place. This and who the elders are is a much debated question.

The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.

In the passages quoted - it is quite compatible with the rapture described in 1 Thess 4:13-17, 2 Th 2:1-8 the saints are caught up to meet Christ in the air and he slays his enemies by the word of his mouth and the splendor of his coming.

Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation. Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.

We should first note that this is written to the church of Philadelphia which is the sixth church to be addressed. We should note that it based on the fact that they kept Jesus command to endure patiently. Can we take a promise to just one of the seven churches and apply it to the whole church. What about the elect in Mark 13:20 who come out of the tribulation. What about the great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language (Rev 7:9) these all come out of the great tribulation (Rev 7:14).

(Rev 3:10-11 NIV) Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. {11} I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

(Mark 13:19-20 NASB) "For those days will be a time of tribulation (thlipsis) such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created, until now, and never shall. {20} "And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect whom He chose, He shortened the days.

(Rev 7:14 NIV) I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41) says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.

The point is that we are not resurrected at the time 1 Thess 4:15-17 plainly shows that the resurrection occurs at the same time as the second coming and the rapture.

(Mat 24:29-31 NIV) "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' {30} "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. {31} And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

(1 Thess 4:15-17) According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. {16} For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. {17} After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.

I do not think that your point stands up to close scrutiny. 1 Thess 4:13-17 indicates that the Second Coming, the resurrection and the rapture occur at the same time. Mat 13:40 says the wicked will be weeded out of the kingdom, Mat 13:48 says they collected the good fish in baskets but threw the bad away, Mat 25:32 says that the sheep and goats will be separated and Mat 24:30 says that at the second coming the elect will be gathered the four winds.

(Mat 13:37-41 NIV) He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. {38} The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, {39} and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. {40} "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. {41} The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.

(Mat 13:47-50 NIV) "Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. {48} When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. {49} This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous {50} and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

(Mat 25:31-32 NIV) "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. {32} All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

(Mat 24:30-31 NIV) "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. {31} And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.

OK you are saying that the church is raptured gets married and then returns to earth seven years later with the groom at the second coming (oops sorry third coming). In that case the parable you quote from (Luke 12:36) is meaningless because anyone who does get saved after the rapture will know that they have exactly seven years to wait and that Jesus will come at an hour they do expect.

(Luke 12:35-40 NIV) "Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, {36} like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. {37} It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. {38} It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the second or third watch of the night. {39} But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. {40} You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.

I am sure that it will only be a brief stop over.

(1 Th 4:15-17 NIV) According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. {16} For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. {17} After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

(John 14:2-3 NIV) In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. {3} And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the rapture because the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.

According to Revelation the Antichrist will either imprison or kill all the Christians. The beast will kill the Two Witnesses (Rev 11:7). Revelation says that he (the beast) was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them (Rev 13:7). Since the word 'saints' is used I assume that this means the church.

(Rev 11:7 NIV) Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

(Rev 13:7 NIV) He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.

Even Christians will be judged.

(Rom 14:10 NIV) You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

(2 Cor 5:10 NIV) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

If the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium (See "Who will populate the millennium?" Bible Study).

This assumes that the millennium occurs after the Second Coming. However Peter says that at Christ's coming the heavens and the earth will be destroyed by fire. (2 Pet 3:10 NIV) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. In 2 Pet 3:13 he says that 'we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth'.